Cultivating algae | Peter Mponzi with The Living Revolution

Algae is a high potential and high protein food. Learn how engineers and entrepreneurs like Peter Mponzi are using algae to cultivate the future of nutrition.

Peter Mponzi is a chemical process engineer by training and current entrepreneur in algal production. He has eight plus years experience in the renewable fuel industry, and is currently focusing specifically on downstream algal processing and scale-up. Mponzi talks us through the technical, regulatory and market success criteria for algal cultivation and what you can expect from the algal revolution.

The Living Revolution brings you scientists, industry leaders and entrepreneurs working on engineering biology to solve the world’s most pressing challenges. Listen in if you too like to hear the trials and successes of the bioeconomy.

This podcast is produced by Sara Knurowska.

Access the transcript for this episode using this link. 

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to the episode
• 1:02 Why is algae so important for the future of food nutrition?
• 4:20 The two main strains of algae being cultivated.
• 6:15 What is the difference between upstream and downstream processing?
• 11:47 Current challenges in algal processing
• 16:52 How do you solve challenges like biofilm formation?
• 19:49 The composition of algal products.
• 23:51 What do global consumers think about algal products?
• 26:28 Visualising algal oils, pastes and liquids
• 30:37 Eating algae in community - why is algal protein better than plant-based?
• 37:58 How does pricing compare between countries?
• 42:43 Are the regulatory frameworks in Europe hindering the route to market?
• 46:37 Key waste streams from algae production and biorefinery.
• 51:09 What is your dream or hope for the future?

Transcript

Introduction

You come by a stall at a food convention. There's an abundant amount of pastes you sample with varying textures. And someone hands you an interesting drink in a fancy glass - champagne, except it's blue. The pastes have a rich umami and salty flavour with hints of freshness. You delight in these intriguing foods. 'So what are they made of?' you ask, and the answer takes you by surprise. Everything you've tried today is made from algae. 

Our guest, Peter Mponzi, is a chemical engineer by trade and an entrepreneur, here to discuss the production of algae for consumer consumption.

I'm Sara Knurowska, and you're listening to The Living Revolution. The Living Revolution invites scientists, entrepreneurs and industry leaders to picture the future of our world, whether it be in ensuring food security or making green tech a reality. We've got you covered. Listen in and enjoy this episode. 

Q: Peter, thank you for joining us. Why is algae so important for the future of food nutrition? 

It's sustainability. It is one of the key carbon capture methods. When we produce algae, it absorbs CO2. It’s a win-win situation. You are helping to reduce CO2. On the other hand, you are developing new products in the market. 

Q: What are the main focus points in improving food nutrition content? 

There's two ways. First of all, we need to ask the question: is it food for animal feed or the food for human being? So why should we improve? And the improvement depends on the technological part and the raw material, the feedstocks. 

When it comes to improving food nutrition for human beings, according to European Union standard, really they are focused on the two parts of the materials, not from upcycling, they use plant based. The plant-based materials which can have a protein of around 50, no more than that. Soybeans and other raw materials to get the protein from there, but the contents inside. Because it's not only protein, we got protein like chicken, pork, but with different amino acid contents. You should have essential amino acids inside them. How to improve food nutrition depends on the raw material, the feedstocks. We can use biological parts like yeast, bacteria and fungi to make proteins industrially. 

Protein from the algae or protein from seaweeds are salt proteins. This means you have to remove the salt - salinity. You get the oil by 2% and then recover protein. A lot of Biotechs now are working with two strains of algae, which is spirulina and chlorella. That's why they got 7% of protein in both sides in water soluble or insoluble byproduct. There’s a real push in the tech space to understand: how to capture in the process, how to get the protein. techniques and that's what we see. A lot of biotechs they are focused on those areas, and in the EU regulation, they're really targeting only two strains to get the right concentration of protein. 

The improvement need to be in the process: how you design the operation system, and avoid genetic engineering. Through the process, you get a high concentration of content amino acid and then after that you have evaluation. 

Q: And why are we focusing on two strains? Why aren't we diversifying the strain portfolio? 

It is a question of feasibility. That's one thing. And then it's more not dangerous. Secondly, we need to understand how to cultivate it. For example, is it in wastewater or fresh water or can it be cultivated in both? Does it vary in cost? Is it hygienic? Harmful, not harmful? You need to know if the strain you are working with is available. 

In Europe, it's not like area you can get the strains everywhere in the country. But the priority is in how to make it. For example, I can give you phycocyanides. Phycocyanide is one of the strains of spirulina. It is one strain which is very appropriate. It has two protein and then it's very good as an ingredient for any kind of foods. You can use them with ice creams in terms of the powder or liquid forms and then you can do any branding with them, in sauce everything. In the market, it's not so expensive because it's like one kilo 60, one kilo 70. But it can be very expensive in the liquid form because it has a phycolipoprotein, which has a little bit more high value in the market. This lipoprotein costs one kilo for $2000, $1,000, something like that. A lot of companies, they work on those areas, they want to get markets. 

Q: When it comes to then the processing of algae, what is upstream versus what is downstream? Can you talk through a little bit, how does it work from sort of raw material, the final product, how does the process function? 

Okay, in the upstream, you have to boost it to grow, in that you have to give it nutrients, light, little bit heat, temperature. And then they start to grow. That's in normal environments, they grow in small light. Within certain amount, we can check the total optical density. Optical density means small particle in a few days start to be like small kind of living organism moving around. In that case, you have to check what we call optical density (OD), how much it has in source suspension. In time, you have to introduce more nutrients and then you move to form small what the small package to the bigger. You put the water, nutrients like minerals and then you add it and then they grow again. You can see suspension is coming more. So that is called upstream. You go in a cycle to do that. Transfer one cell to different cell become multiple cells, living organism and chain. That is part of upstream system. 

You control the temperature, pressure, control all nutrients, make sure that they have the very optimal conditions, very optimal nutrients. They can grow in better conditions. Different strains prefer different conditions. Some like consistent light, some like more light completely. When you get a high enough concentration, you remove the water. There's a kind of like we'll call like a xy xy. They grow and you see the peak is going up and then there's a stationary phase. And then if you wait for a long time they will go down and that means no growth. But they have already have much suspension in a system. Then, you harvest. There are different techniques to do that harvesting process. And then you recover biomass. 

The biomass you got from harvesting is in a pest form. Before the drying process, you have to check what contents you have. You check the compositions, 4%, maybe 10%, 3% of different compositions, and then you have to say, this is good scale, good prototypes, and I can go for big scale to get more what you expect. And then you go for drying to get the powder form, get the concentration of material inside, composition. After that, you have the extraction. You have to break down the cell. 

What do you want to do? You might want to get only phyco, like a material which you have, like a pigment, like prophylanoid, it's different material, or an oil. Depends. In terms of algae, spirulina has a very small amount of oil like two to 3%. People don't really look for that, they are just looking for protein. So, where is the protein? The protein is in the outer layer, where you can get phycocyanin protein liquid forms, and then you can get the protein from insoluble. After drying, after extraction, you get the defaulted material. You have to get the slush. We're using different techniques, maybe ultrasounds, other techniques to get that. And then you can have your products as a protein. So that we call downstream. 

The upstream and downstream parts are distinct, and you cannot work with one person to do the same one. If you are PhD student, you're doing some research, but if you're in industry, there's upstreams who really improve the process, the product, and then downstreams, who increase, optimise, get higher yields and high concentration material. 

Q: Would you say the downstream begins when you're increasing the yields inside the, I guess, containers that the algae is growing in? 

Yeah, the downstreams, they really integrate together. If you have a very low yields from the upstreams, you cannot have very high yield in a downstream. It's impossible. The yield, where does it come from? It depends: what are you intending to produce? You intend to produce proteins for other product carbohydrates or do you intend to produce omega three fatty acid. For the content of omega three fatty acid, maybe before drying and after drying. Before drying, you mean from upstream we see the content, how much you have and then how much you end up with. If the variation is so different and then when you do extraction, that one it will affect. So you need to get a little bit higher, at least two to 4%. And then you can get more from there. After the extraction, you get maybe dry matter, you get 5, 10 or 8%. That's a good sign. And then, you know, if you get 10% of the dry matter material, what are you expecting? And then that's a good sign. You can have a good extraction yields and a good extraction efficiency. And a recovery rate could be maybe 90-95%. 

Q: What are the current challenges in algae processing? 

Based on my experience, I can say that software in Europe is the one of the challenges, as well as resources to tackle the problems. If you don't work with sufficient resource, you may have end up in very wrong directions. The resources affect the processing. What I mean is you get funding from the investors and then the funding needs to be accelerated according to what time frame you have - like ten months or nine months. And then you operate this kind of part. The more you don't have financial support to do research, you may end up in not in the right direction because you don't have the right facility or won’t have the opportunity to find try different solutions. That's one part. 

But once you have full funded and you got very good ideas. And these ideas mean that you do lab research and then not hypothesis. You really take practical lab at the lab. Then you have consistent products like consistent batches. In lab you can play, you can manipulate using different techniques to get to what you expect. 

Once you transfer from one kilo to ten, the changes start to appear. The technical equipment starts to falter, because maybe you see the filter is not working properly. Pump is not very good. You start needing to upgrade the equipment. Maybe you get used to use a prostatic pump, but the prostatic pump is inefficient, because it takes so long to pump, it overheats and then not working same time. And the pressure it will be like drop down. And then you have problem of the clogging kind of thing. Those are the challenges in the engineering or in a practical part. 

That’s why you need to observe each day and every day. This is one of the key ways to get to know what your process should look like, how to improve it and how to move for next one. To validate the process, it needs to be working ten times if that's possible. You cannot have a validation where the process is going for only two days or two or three times and say, oh, this is valid. No, it's wrong because when in the transfer of solutions, we see a lot of tech problems. So that's what I feel, I see myself.

And then another challenge could be the environment - where you are, where you are could have a very high cost to do this processing especially for algae – and also ensuring you are operating on the right path. You might have to do indoor, and some of the algae can do fermentation process. But the fermentation process is also another layer or is another approach where you have to use a lot of sugar. So that's one part of challenge, how to operate in the right path. 

If you look for challenges in operations, there's no challenge in upstreams. They're only challenge for overheating, so it's too hot. And then when they have a certain temperature. Maybe most of the algae, they grow under 40, at least 40 degrees. This is spirulina. That's why it's everywhere, 40 degrees. Stay alive. Not more than that. Controlling the temperature is very important that you keep that way. You may have your product. So that's more technical challenge in operations. 

In terms of in a country, Europe or Americans or other way, the changing weather is the challenge. Summertime you may have very good productions and wintertime you may change. Or summertime you get very poor conduction. Wintertime you may have good production. So the variation will affect your process and the product you are looking for. It can be solved, there's no problem. There's a way how to do that. 

One other way around is to use indoor tuber photovoliators. You use a system to make sure that you keep the temperature optimal, running in the right condition and then you get the product. But it's very expensive, that process. you are startup, it costs a lot. If you have a good funding, you run it and then it has a very huge amount of the productivity compared to open calibration points. This is very high productivity. Because of temperature and heating, it can produce biofilm. There is a kind of material, which is you cannot see. They grow up kind of piping each other. And then the colour change. That's the group have another problem. 

Q: The key challenges that you've mentioned are the lack of funding. the second one was hardware, machines and how they're working. Whether the tanks get clogged up and things like this. And finally, the biological problems such as the biofilm formation. How do you solve, for example, biofilm formation? 

Biofilm formation can happen in two ways. One, it can happen in a tubular photovolt reactor or it can happen when you work in a greenhouse. In the greenhouses. When I mean the greenhouse, I mean the house which is covered by not just a plastic but is covered by the top. Very high, low for everything is good. Let’s say you have very good ventilation systems. I'm taking this as what I did in China. We didn't use this very expensive equipment to produce. We use very cost-effective way - open ponds. We start from small cube photobioactives with a continuous process. It's just like continue until we change. We can see suspension of microbes. Colour is very high. The transfer of the open pond inside the house is open pond. And then we kind of recycle because we can check the salinty contents.

After that, you can feel that the growth is good. And then you have to go in a big pond for big in operation. After that you can go for harvesting. So those tips, it's very good. But we got the problem. Remember that time the biofilm, it was hoping that it's showing up. When you use a centrifuge machine, a pump centrifuge. And then when you start the dewatering, you see underneath of the plastic cover that protects against contamination, biofilm formation. 

In that case, you can use antibiofilm. But not everybody does that. You can put some antibiofilm in a system or the products. Sometimes it's very good because you need to remove that, because it's a liquid form. So you need to remove the biofilm and it may affect your product in the end. In science way, we avoid this to do not during antiforming, chemical wiping, anything. Not at all. Just to find out how we can get all the temperature as low as possible. And then, of course, this what we call a flushing. We increase a lot of air to get all things mixing. And then there's another exchange mixture. There in the pipe there's a lot of mixture, so it vibrates. And then make sure that the algae never stick in surface wall. They always go in the water surface. Never stick. So always big cost, but that's how we use flushing to prevent biofilm in the system. It is the technical way. But it worked very nice. Instead of using antiforming, which is not good for anything. 

Q: For you, what would be an algae success story? 

Algae have a very high potential. I can see the oil which come from algae. It's similar to fish oil, but different. The odour, the smell, you smell algae, but in my formulations I make sure they were less smells. Like a soybean oil plant-based, really pure. We have a problem. We call the stability. Because when you move from one area to another one, Maybe you take a flight tonight, You go to Spain. Today at home is very cold. Over there, it's very warm. When you’re at the meetings, open up your sample. You start to see kind of accumulations, the particles. Which is clean, but because of the stability is not stable. This is based on oxidation. It oxidised with a very high temperature. Oxidation is come only if the light is too strong. And then you have transparent material. It contacts air and then it starts to be like that. But always a challenge. I was able to get rid of it. The quality of the EPA or oil from the algae is much better compared to the oil which we use for fish oil. The fish oil wouldn't use, but not that quality. 

Q: These oils are similar in terms of their contents? 

It's a similar nutrition, I agree with you. But there are some that are very good chain, developed hydrocarbon chains. In the petrochemical industry, there is low amount of omega three. Because there are glyco repeats and phospholipids. This is 40% together. And 60% is other lipids. This is what is much more saturated fat. And this is what we get used from the plant-based materials. It's like omega six, nine, six nine. And when you go for the quality, if you compare the fish oils, the omega three fat acid is much better, the quality. When you are eating the food in digestion system, how to digest the melting, the oil, what you're eating is like the same thing when you feel from the oil from France or Italy seed oil. It has very soft and tender on the taste. 

Q: Like rape seed, right? 

Yes, it's very good, tender tasting. Algae oil has the same thing when you eat from these two components, glycolipid or phospholipid. The taste is very light, very good. This looks same like a fish oil because of the mixing, but you have to be separated. When you separate the oil, you can see how quality is. That's a reason you can see in the market, omega 3 fatty acid cost you for one kilo. It's based on purity. It can go for €600 per 1 kilo. Fish oil is not even 600 euro per one kilo. Never. That because of the quality and how it looked like, if you go for more purification, you have very pure oil and a very high quality, you can go to the market. And as to why, you see, a lot of the biotech companies were looking for the ep omega three, or DHA, to get that right, because they have fresh and good oil quality compared the rest of algae. 

Q: How do you see adapting the different strains and the processes towards local diets and local cultures? What do the consumers think about algae products at the moment? What would you say, and what needs to be done there to bridge a gap, which I can see. I'm not sure when I think about eating algae. I don't know. I didn't grow up with it. 

The consumer is a key player and the consumer always asks a lot of questions. And first they think, like, algae is just this green thing. How come it came to oil? And then they might look at the algae powder, and think this can be poisonous. It's like a little bit, a lot of questions. But this questioning is an opportunity. What is a question up is good and right and keep it, because that's like an opportunity for you to improve the product. First to give what they expect, expectation come to life. You may give a chance to them say, okay, this is algae, this is oil. And then when they see it, how is it produced? And that's why it comes to the mind. Oh, yes, that's how it looked like. Okay. And then they can see how pure it is, very pure and then they say okay this is what I was expecting. 

I had an experience when I was in Singapore. We had a different sample and protein from algae, the powder form. We are in a meeting and big conference. And then I was just having a lot in the table of different samples. People come around and ask questions and all things. Some of them are tasting, they want to smell.

What did I do? First of all I didn't make everything very complicated. I just put question. I want to question someone to discover the algae on their own. And then it's something which is algae which is in a pest form. It seems really dark in batch look very not very friendly. That's how I was trying to get questions before. Because if you put everything nice then we say this is something I don't eat. 'So what is it?' This is algae. 'And what product is it?' So those questions they start to bring up. And then every question that come up I take one sample from the box. I say okay, from this part I got this one. This one I got this one. So I was showing them different products in one, particular where it come from. And they were really surprised. They asked me can I taste? Why not? If you are able to eat it then it's okay. I have a piece of bread and then I takes the one which is not very good and then it doesn't look good but it's very good taste. It’s the same kind of taste like you get from margarine, these butters. It feels like the avocado part. This is one of the fattest. This is a lot of fat. 

The colour - they were really sceptical with colour but they tasted whether it is good. Look avocado but it has much more good salts because of the salt salinity. Good salt, yes. And then we go to the oil and then after that I show them how does it look like the protein, the California protein from plant based and protein from algae. It’s different. The plant-based which there's no salinity at all. Just brine material. And this one it has salt and something this oh this is very good. Nice. It's just salt a lot but you can feel something good. That's algae protein. 

Then there’s a broth, we go in a small broth and a lot of people come around and see a lot of everything. Some they say, I like to see this more transparent in terms of very look like a plant based. Some they say the oil should be like this. So all the questions are answered. If you go publicly to give them and then they'll be happy to save if they read from the news anywhere, algae the food or tv, whatever. But they never seen reality, tangible material on the table. They were always patient and it is so hard to bring product to market because they have no idea how does it look like. So they're going to buy something. They have no idea. So they have to taste it before. 

Q: Just to visualise your booth at this conference or this exhibition, you have a variety of algae oils, algae in paste forms or the solid forms. They vary in fat content and in salinity. Give a customer opinion. How do they like it what algae look like?

We got champagne. The champagne colour, it was branded with tycocyanates. Tycosan is a very light blue colour, not too dark. Light colour. It's protein. But it was branded with the champagne. I was in Vienna a two years ago. I was in the conference. So we mix it with the champagne. With champagne people. They were really, oh, this is blue light colour, white come from. This is the champagne. I said, no, can't be orange. Can't be mixed orange. This is impossible. Yes. And then they were retesting and whiskey, even whiskey, very strong. Do we brand it with algae? With a carbocynate colour? It's the same content, the same feedback. There was question, how do you do that? 

Yeah, it's a business. We know how to do that because you spread up the carbon like a carbon protein. not so touch there, but the smell. Colour can be the same. So that's my biological part and engineering. They were very happy at the end. We can get colour from food, from liquid form because this is, we call it water soluble. It can be anywhere in this form. The colour can be there, nothing change. It has very strong colours. and then we bring it with ice cream. Carrot really good ice cream. You just mix up. It's the same content. Ice cream like these give very good flavour because it has so it mixes salted sugar and then it's a very good kind of reformation, very good taste. Customers realise this and we have the different sample. Everybody said I like this one, I like this one. You put ticks and who would like it more plant-based protein is soybeans and the less protein which is in the plant-based material I say it can be 50% protein and it's not all proteins. 

There are very few central amino acids. Plant-based central amino acid content is very small. Maybe you get two or three but you get other proteins but they’re not essential. You need enough protein to get your brain working and not get tired. If you ate a lot of plant based material, you'd be okay. But do you think you can get enough? That's what reason people running for chickens and get that meat because you can cover the protein amount you need. If you eat cow it's there but it's not good because for your stomachs like your digestive system, it’s not very good. Plant-based has 40% to 50% of protein content inside. 

On the other hand, if you go for algae it has almost 70% of protein and then it has maybe 70% including maybe 25 or 40% of potential amino acid inside.  the consumption where you can go morning me and I'm going to eat algae. You're going to eat plant based it will stay longer in a day. Maybe I cannot eat much more just like very nice food but I can stay maybe two more hours than the one with plant based you can go many times for the have this like a bread to get some snacks cover to get energy like that. 

Q: How are you dieting? I know a lot of people who switch to let's say a vegan or a plant-based diet, they have a lot of problems with making sure that they eat enough as they would on a meat diet. And I guess algae would solve this problem. 

I can add it on top of that, because I was in Spain last summer living in the community. There's a Dutch community there who are vegans. And they were not eating meat, nothing. But when corona came, and they asked me: can you design a food for us to have much more protein in our diet? I say, yeah, why not? What I asked them: how did you recover with protein, with the Covid-19 how was it? ‘We were very sick. Everybody was sick. And the reason: because we are not eating any meat to cover the protein. We eat a lot of plants, but we didn't have very good recovery.’ What they mentioned to me, after a couple of days, when they test to see this get worse, and then they turn to eat meat, and within just one week, everybody recovers, become normal, no one is sick. And they start question, they asked me, what would you do for us to improve their diet? Because they are eating only plant based, so they want to improve. And then I say to them that you got only 40% in that protein, and that's the reason you eat a lot, but it is not high quality, but lot of material in the table, but it doesn't make them to be more high recovery. 

I went to lab. I make algae powder forms. One day I have two kilos. And then I said, yes, eat with anything, and we will see if anything changes. Yeah they eat a very fermented bread with their protein to mix up. And then they use that also with soya beans, something like that, with any kind of things. And then they start to say, oh, yeah, it's much better. But I say, yeah, this is like it. I wanted to hear, because I'm doing your research, so I want to hear what you like it and then we can make it. I was ordering for them almost 50 to 100 kilos. Just oil powder protein. That's it. And it was expensive, but they say it's good and I will want to keep that because they don't want to eat meat. 

I'm a chemical engineer, but when it came to the biological parts and these nutrition people when they say plant based is good yes it's good but what are you eating there? The content isn't enough to have in your body for long. Algae is a little bit harder to acquaint the customer with what it is and the contents. It will take a time but it will be successful. It will be one way to get rid of all this vegan food which is yes it is good but I cannot say like in negative way but I can say there's need a lot of improvement in that case.

One thing about growth is if you eat very good and very good condition you can live longer and you can have very health being well-being not very sick and have its proper weight every time through everything. But if you have very less amount of food and then you recipe your body not really having because you have almost 2000 calories per days. If you don’t have consume enough calories and you have less protein content from your food, within six months it's a problem because even the brain itself it needs energy to work physically. We have to go do other scientists to find a way to help. 

Q: What are the global customers like and how do the prices compare?

Not Europe. I haven't seen them much in Europe yet, but in China, proteins, it's working in Tokyo, Japan, they work with algae as normal. They eat normal noodles, algae, they mix a lot of things. It's in the market. And that's the reason there's a little bit kind of like trend in protein contents of algae. The issue is marketing is complicated in the European countries. When you are in Spain, Spanish government, they have different laws within EU. If you are ordering food outside or you are getting something which they have to check it, they have to really find out which is good.

For example, algae in Spain, in a restaurant is not very popular. People, they don't know much. They know in the processing to go shopping to see there's a package of protein from algae. I haven't seen it yet to go shop in Shenzhen, China. I've seen protein, plant based material, protein from algae. And it costs differently. And people buy. The one thing I was surprised China is developing countries, people there, there's almost a lot of people. And the food consumption is very high. There's a lot of meat every day or fish, even algae, whether it's very expensive in a small scale in the market, people buy it and they really eat it. I'm always asking myself what's behind the reality because I was expecting, because the things that they are developing, though, they'll be more sceptical criticism, like we don't do. But they really have to eat those. 

Yes, they eat like amazing. We call it tofu. Tofu is a protein plant based on soybeans. They use it different techniques. It's a very common in chinese asian food. So it's like cheese, but it's very heavy. You can eat it. We can use tofu branded with other protein like from algae. And that's how we can get markets. And that's the reason tofu was a boom for asian countries. It's become more like the company was what is called bio tofu by nutrients. They design using chlorella and spanorina produce protein branded with the tofu together. The catchy market isi in Asia countries Taiwan, Vietnam Thailand and other countries. They already have these types of products and the market is very cheap. 

They're trying to make it cheaper as possible to attract customers, first of all. So I think in Asia they were putting like one kilos, around 60 to €40. In the United States, it’s more expensive. Partly because it is branded as a nutritional food, brand new, superfood, even for the gymnasts and people are doing exercise. And then the cost of the plant based in United States compared to the algae. It's not the same because american yet sometimes where they try to boost up. But in the real life, people still using plant based and other food which is there. 

In Europe there's a lot of things to be done, I think from my opinion, because I haven't seen every single product, a lot of single products which is in the plant based material is in the store at moment. If you go to market now, you get a lot of protein from plant based in a store, but not protein from the algae. It's very small. And if it's there people there where you are not buying because maybe they don't know what is. It’s a little bit of a challenge at the moment. But I believe a couple of years , there will be more in store because there's many, many trend towards algae protein products. 

Q: Are there regulatory frameworks in Europe that are hindering the route to market?

I think I can blame the government. Somehow, I can blame the government because we don't have the right government people who will go for the future. They say go for petrol, we go for green energy, go for biomethan, we go for natural, this kind of thing. There have to be some scientists who represent these areas to the cabinets because there's like somebody to say that guys, I did research in biofuels before. I remember when during Obama, it was a lot of bifurcated biofuel. Because there's somebody who was there trying to say there's a biofuel rate to be used. But in scientist way. I think in algae there's very few people, not politicians but to be scientists and then to become mindset to go there and say you know what, I'm a scientist and I can tell you this. 

We have to be honest. But we don't have that kind of person. We got politicians who just read the articles and after that just very short two page and they got the cabinet and they make a very big conclusion. And that make it very tight for them to make a very strong change. And they have no idea how to start. 

Yes we need to protect everything. But you need to do research first before you make protection. When you see something is harmful or you say this doesn’t work, then you can add protection. I can give example of chinese or asian country. When I was working, I developed the process and I did validation and get the patents before put in the market or before get licenced to the government. We get the patents, we use America patents and then we have a product and then we start to test it before. And then we ask for the licence. And when they come the government checked everything systematically: the system are working. How does everything safety issues, everything is okay. And then we start selling the products. 

But here in Europe, it is different. They have to go first to ask you for the regulatory policy to follow and then get back and then start again. So even though if it doesn't work it make the process longer. The money, meanwhile, is running out because you are not able to focus on tweaking the technical and processing parts. Instead, you focus in different area Paperworking and to get this done. But actually it's the lab, it's the technical part that you need to play around with and touch it and see is it working. 

I can see that in Europe, things go a little bit slower. With the algae part is just playing around most of the time. Within nine months, ten months, one year. And then you do the same thing all the time which is the main problem. A lot of Startup companies they have very energetic motivation, enthusiastic in the beginning. And then when they start having this problem of challenge and then they get very strong rules to follow. And if they are not able to fulfil the rules, regulation, they start to give up. They change the platform, they go with the other way. It’s never been straightforward. It's always the change somewhere along the way. We need to find the right people. 

One of the key things is to have someone representing this area, someone with expertise, the guy or the lady, someone who really knows what about algae, and how does it work and what could be done from now in ten years? What is the potential to have it? And then from thereby people they need access to the customer, and they need to taste this. Everybody write their opinions. 

Q: What would you say are the key waste streams of the algae product making process? Would those waste streams products be repurposed somehow? Is there already methods for this? 

Yeah, that's what I'm doing now. This is called biorefinery. So good question. And algae biorefinery because before we talk about protein, the rest of things, this particular product. So now, right now I'm working in this company. I developed a process, it's already validated, it's working. It's called algae biorefinery. There's nothing wasted as to keep it in water streams where everything is recovered and useful in the systems there's nothing which is lost. In terms very technical, you asked from the beginning what is upstream. The upstream you have the biomass and the pest. 

When you remove the water, you get the pests and the pests, you have to be drying where this water can be used after the one it's used. It has also a lot of minerals. And those minerals it has also some, not bacteria, but some contamination somehow. So how to recover and to use the same water for integrations. We can use the systems which I tested for the osmosis process, but it costs, but I use membranes. And then you have to have the covered water and then you need to check the salinity content of the water, how much minerals it has. And then after that you pump it and then you start to grow. And the residues it's burn not burning completely because you have to put them in the ground. So minerals, that's the waste money which is a residues we check.

Q: What kind of residue do you have, does it have a lot of organic material. Is it able to go for landfill? 

No, for the agriculture fertiliser. How is that possible? You check if there's a possibility, if there's a heavy metal, you use techniques how to remediate the heavy metals out. After that you can cheque the soil and nitrogen ammonia contents, how much ammonia content and nitrate. So if that could be for the fertiliser. Yeah. So this kind of thing, you are trying to get everything in a single part. Not everything fits in the land feed. How to recover your solvent, how to purify you use the same solvent to the system instead of just put in a bin or put somewhere in a storage and keep it harmful. It's not good for environment, everything. This is very good environmental friendly way to look for the future. And then there's no single upstream product, it's just going in springs which is not allowed. Everything have to be recovered and that's what we do. And it's not very easy. You need to have a very good background of chemical engineering design and then for of course how to use technology part. And then we have very good background of biologists. Minerals and nutrient and organic something out balance everything. 

At the end of the day your system is very balanced, you have 100% control. Everything is going in the right direction. And that's how we should do every company. In that case you may have proteins in the pipeline, you may have omega three, you may have prosacride which is like a chip, you may have carbohydrates, some part of it. You have five or six products in the pipeline and always you have business, you have marketing. No matter we produce the human product, maybe high value, keep in market, the rest should be recovered.

If you look for the return of investment you may get maybe instead of two years you get one year, one year return of investment. Because your product and process it has been very designed in a good way. 

Q: Based on your background and your expertise. What's your dream or your hope for the future? 

My dream in the future I want to have my own company and this is what now I'm working on. What should I do? I should find the right people to do this, to have my dreams come true, I need to face the right person. Like you go to marry somebody. It's the same thing like when you want to make some investment to this for future in terms of a company and make a dream come true. I need to find the right people in terms of the scientists and who doing the business where it is. Because this algae, where we are now is very high potential, I can tell you. It's not like something you just touch and go. No, it has very high potential. And then with that potential, it never end up today or tomorrow. Because if you have very good skills. 

What I have, I have background of chemical engineering in reducing fuels. So it's possible to use some strains like strain of RG, which you have very wrong by the carbon chain we call brocos. But people, they really have doubting, I know the cost it is, but that kind of strains, it has the oil content the same as normal oil. What do we have? Petrochemical engine and you have no oxygen. So in the petrochemical engine there's no deoxygenation. They don't deselfariciation to remove the sulphur. No deoxygenation though, that's the problem of barthium. It comes a problem because it's never be competitive with the phosphorium because of the oxygen. And of course of the catalyst, the oxidation and total number is in catalyst. It doesn't open up the chains of other carbon. It's too sticky. That's why it's very complicated. So there's a strength, the algae, which you can implement, design it, and it can be not, you have to use generic engineering. It can be even non generic engineering to make sure that you get the real oil in the system. 

This one approach, and America, I think they do that. They have done that, but not in a commercial scale, but in power scale. They have done it. They get oil this one part of it from algae, that's one type of algae, one type of strength. You can bring it to the table and run to make sure you get that. So that's what I think in the future, I need to find a way how to find a solution in terms of this bottleneck, what people say, it cannot be possible. This is too expensive. Yes, even algae is very expensive. Process whatever you're doing, but the cost to recover, not from now, within five years. And then we see the cost, what you produce and the market value, what you have. But if you want to make it within two or one year, you will never see the potential of the covering the cost. You'll be very open up. But until when you are in marketing, you are selling and you produce and you sell, you produce systems and then you see you reach your target value for the market. So I want to be entrepreneur, full entrepreneur. Everything is possible. That's what I do. 

Outro

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